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Cole, again you don't understand the concept of censorship and again it's not the artwork. If you want to change it, by all means change it, completely. Covering her up is absolutely the very definition of censorship. If they were not comfortable with it they never should have put it up as the cover image of their product and no one would have known the difference.

But they did and now they are receding. You say you are concerned about your son's well being if this is true how are you comfortable with him utilizing the battlemage. Does he need to be able to look like that shirtless to be truly valued by the world? I would view the over sexualized artwork as a much better teaching tool about this subject than as a curse.

Anyone who says this is not a form of censorship is simply lying to themselves. Censorship takes a group of people saying it's OK to alter something to fit their message rather than telling their own story about it. Censorship is a much deeper and convoluted issue than the very apparent surface ones people seem to be discussing in a way similar to many of the really important issues discussed today like sexism, racism and classism. I could go on all day about this, but I think I'll just leave it here ultimately it comes down to the question of am I making the world happier or angrier?

I am just extremely disappointed in this decision as I am generally a strong supporter of TMG. Matthew, I don't understand: Cole I completely respect your opinion. I, myself, think that the differences between men and women should be celebrated.

I think Michael's original intent was to have a much wider range of diversity in the Illustrations I think I went as subtle as I could on pose and general face without making her look like a man in poor fitting armor. I think there is a place for androgyny and a lot of artists a heck of a lot better than me pull it off with style, but I'd rather celebrate the diversity and teach youngsters to look beyond what they perceive with their eyes Again, Thanks for backing I personally can't wait to hear what you all think of the next several characters.

Matthew, careful there, when you point them towards the slippery slope and confront them with the hypocrasy of their position the acceptable male beefcake battlemage you get a resounding: Ryan-thanks for joining this conversation, and thanks for the great artwork.

The Battlemage's beefcake is more a result of me not being able to afford models and having to pose for myself. Cross I laughed out loud at your earlier comment She's a paladin, not a prude. That's reserved for clerics and nuns. With that in mind, I wish to discuss copyright infringement for your clearly having modeled the Ooze die-face off of me, then: Ryan - I thought the Paladin original art was consistent with the "Confessors" in white from the Sword of Truth book series that was made into Legend of the Seeker.

That TV show was a "mouse company" production and the Confessors showed almost exactly that much cleavage. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw the original art. In other words, I really liked it! Christopher That is actually Rob Lundy. And might I say you were incredible inspiration Corby Wow, I must have totally channeled subconsciously.

I loved the books and while I really thought Richard was miscast, I admit to a little bit of drooling over the confessors the Confessors. Also, I've offered to do whatever Michael thinks best for the Paladin.

There are great pros and cons, and I hope that everyone thinks that all of the options are at least tasteful and not gratuitous. However, nothing is going to change on Ms. Paladin until I can get the other new characters in front of you all Matthew Please don't try to assume what I do or do not know. I am well aware of what censorship is, thank you.

What you seem to not understand is that this isn't an artistic venue, it is a product and a company with an image. This has very little to actually due to the art and everything to do with how that product and company choose to express itself. If you want to split hairs, our clamoring for Michael to go one way or the other could be argued as censorship as we are attempting to repress his personal desires. Ryan I totally understand your point and agree.

The genders are different and they should each rejoice in that. However, people are not just sexual beings and to my point, I feel it is irresponsible of society to almost solely depict women sexually.

It creates an unrealistic expectation. Ryan Thank you for not taking any of this personally and making somewhat light of the situation, your perseverance is honorable and your talent extraordinary.

Sean I'm sorry I have to defend myself against your snarkiness in your second statement I really had very little desire to re-enter this conversation. So let me begin there. Art is entirely different than the real world and is far more intangible than tangible. Now as someone stated earlier it would be entirely inappropriate for her to be nude in this game, this is not Busen Memo or a hentai game after all, however the alteration of an idea just to satisfy your own desires based on the dissent of a few is entirely different.

I would have a similar problem with people placing a black bar over the Venus de Milo if a poster was placed in a school because a few parents were offended. However, I would have no issue with them deciding to take it down and replace it with an alternate piece of unaltered artwork. Michael has indeed stated that he was uncomfortable including the image in the game yet he decided to place the image front and center on the home page, large as life.

If he really found it questionable he should have evaluated his desires to place it in the game and confronted Ryan about it at that time, not halfway through a campaign.

That alteration IS self-censorship and if you look up the effects of this concept you'll understand why no one takes the news seriously anymore. We have a used everything store in town called Bookman's that is devoted to this very topic and as a Tucsonian and a board gamer who I am sure although I admit it is an assumption utilizes this store I am disappointed he did not consider the far more damaging effects of a decision like altering artwork.

If he wanted different artwork for his game that should have been expressed early in the design process before it ever hit the Kickstarter page. I do not deny that this is his right as a commissioner, but alluding to the fact that "I like to allow our artists to have creative freedom" is simply not true if he tells artists to alter small details of their artwork to fit his sensibilities. It would be much more true if he had instead said something along the lines of "I like this, but its not quite what I want let's go a different direction with it.

I have image -X- in my head, what can you do with that? As for your final comments about my desire to play this game, TMG does make great games that are fun to play and I can't argue with that. You can't censor fun with politics I just wish my fun wasn't colored for me. The problem is that they continue to let politics seep into their publicity programs when they should just let the games speak for themselves. When you go to the movies you don't expect the director to explain the movie before you watch it you do that for yourself and you interpret it however you will.

You gain insight into the meaning with your own self-introspection and discussion with friends. I don't want my own thinking done for me. I guess I should clarify this I do not despise Michael for his decision nor would I never talk to the guy if I met him at RinCon again in fact I would probably present myself so we can have a true face-to-face discussion as I would like to get more than can ever be had on the web as Anonymous.

I also understand that he is not perfect and cannot please everyone all of the time, but at this moment I do have much less respect for him and his goals for TMG as a company trying to pass things off, that do ultimately boil down to politics. Cole, I do actually apologize and did not mean to offend with what I had said as I let my temper get the better of me. However, I do understand what you are saying with the concept of this being censorship as well and my intent is not to get him to alter it to suit my tastes either, but ultimately to make real change in the direction of actual desires he has with the game and not to simply satisfy a user base while leaving the majority of the game that has the same issues he describes unaltered with no plans for real change apparent.

Covering up some breasts though Ryan I know this would ultimately mean more work for you so I'm really not expecting this to happen, but it should have come up MUCH sooner if it was really an issue.

Doesn't bother me one way or the other. A colour changed, okay cool. I do find it odd that people are referring to the paladin as a "sex object" though; maybe I'm too laid back about that kind of thing but all I saw when I saw the original paladin was a paladin. Were her boobs out? It had zero impact on me if they were. I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on "issues" like these because I think a lot of the time people just like to kick up a fuss, but at the end of the day if the artist and the designer want to iterate on what they have I'm not sure it really warrants flaring tempers.

What does concern me is that the introduction of all these new Heroes has obsoleted the original Heroes before they've even been released. Granted, I don't have a full grasp of all the ins and outs of the game, but some of the new Hero abilities seem to kick the originals to the curb. Of course, I'm also annoyed by people who complain about things that they get for free, so part of my also wants to tell myself to shut up!

The new artwork is a step in the right direction for me - whilst still not as good as a properly designed breastplate, it's at least not the 'stab me in the heart pls' open target that it was before now it's just a bladetrap, but as I said, it's a start, and I understand about working within a tight art budget.

There may or may not be a place for skimpy attire in artwork of this nature, but on a frontline fighter is not it, so thank you! Don't like the artwork or the perceived "politics"of a game?

Go build one yourself. Maybe then they'll understand all the careful thought that goes into these tiny details. This game isn't meant to cater to one individual who believes this is a form of censorship. It's meant for thousands maybe millions? Do I care if there are boobs?

Not at all, but many gamers my age have kids to think about, and that's exactly the reason they don't watch porn while the kids play in the same room. Honestly, I never would have noticed the difference of the Paladin if I didn't scroll down and see all the comments moaning over a tiny artistic detail. I have no problems with a sexy illustration, but she is a Paladin and should have realistic armor.

Chain Mail bikinis are great for cheesecake illustrations, but it's not gonna help much in a real fight. Michael Mendes-Censorship is the suppression of public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.

While is is your company and your TMG's decision, I respect that, no matter what the choice is.

House Session, Part 2 Clip: House Session, Part 2. Report profane or abusive content. Bills in this Video H. House of Representatives U. House of Representatives Series U. More information about Clip: Or draw the lovely Mexican family all Americans think we come from. With the wab dad, the saintly mother, the hot sister and the mariposo brother.

I think all this is right, but it's been 20 years And for the women in the future cartoons? Mexican, when I first saw the picture, I laughed in an "Oh no, he didn't really, did he? It seems like it could be very insulting. I am not Latina that I know of but I do share in the realm of being a mujer de color , thus in la historia of insulting archetypes. But on the other hand este dibujo has been out there a long time, and you are a Mexican, so I guess it's one of those "I'm that, sSo I can do what I want with that.

If you haven't received complaints till now I guess the readers don't have too much of a problem with it, no? The illustration represents a happy-go-lucky guy who just might rip you off given the opportunity. I am not good with names, but I will suggest El Pappacita! Growing up gringa in the orangest depths of Orange County i. With that in mind, your little comic avatar is just el hombre for este column—or, to quote a mantra from my childhood, he's "practically perfect in every way.

His name is definitely Pancho. How much more Mexican can you get than that As for how it makes me feel This is how gabachos and possibly other cultures see us. Let's use it, and embrace it, because we know we don't look like that, and that is all that matters.

So let's laugh at ourselves and use the logo with pride. Do NOT get rid of your logo. Only uptight liberal gabachos and loudmouth MEChA members would be offended by him. You should call him what he is: I would have to agree with El Profe on his plegaria for you to stop using the logo you currently have for your column. I completely understand that it represents your dad, and I give you a high five for bringing one of the most important things in a Mexicano 's life the parents into your world-famous column.

But here's my point of view: If you will add a little to the image of your father and make it cartoonish, why not change it a little in the opposite way, in a way that is going to make him look cleaner and more handsome.

Make him look like you actually respect and love him. Maybe you'll get more gabachas to fall for the Mex-lover, and that could even help the rest of us mexicanos out. I'm pretty tired of people thinking that the Mexicano is this lazy dirty person whose first nature is to fight. I do believe that it's been hard to make it where we are today, and yes, revolution and revolutionaries are part of our culture and history. But times have changed. I, and many people I know, fight the current-day revolution with weapons other than guns.

We use books, computers and cell phones, but most of all, we use the brains and knowledge we've been able to gain through our hard work in school and in the workforce preparing ourselves to fight the current-day revolution. Is the image funny?? When you see it, does it bring your mind to think of a Mexican?

Do the people who don't know any better think all Mexicanos are like this "overweight dirty revolutionary"? I'm most sure it can happen! Please take this into consideration, and help us out, don't knock us down. I'll say it HAS to be Pancho The people who seem to be most offended by it are white guilt-ridden liberals and the militant separatist Chicano types who are looking for any excuse to display their fake manufactured outrage.

OK, you wanted opinions. I recognized from the start your purpose in using the dirty, overweight bandido as the column's logo. It does, as you say, over time take the sting out of the stereotype.

It's integral to the column and is serving its purpose, so leave it be. As for his name? I hear it sung at the ballpark before every baseball game—I'm sure Jose doesn't have a very good seat , Jose and the Pussycats. One thing us gringitos do not appreciate—when we need to do it. We pay mojaditos chump change to do that and then complain that they're here in our country. Who was a pinche culero. No, let's drop that one. California-born Mexican-Americans don't count.

Since you are asking your readers to suggest a new logo for your column, here's mine: Yes, she looks nothing like you, but I suspect your current logo doesn't look like you either. Readership on your column would go through the roof! Still, it doesn't help our cause. I'm just a Mexican.

I question your logic in, for lack of a better word, "owning" a derogatory stereotype. Has African-Americans' use overuse? I appreciate the juxtaposition of the overused, stereotypical image paired side-by-side with your witty, biting and often erudite responses. Still, I get the feeling that I'm not the one who needs to get it.

Regardless of how well you write or how thoughtful your responses, some who come across your image likely will just have their biases reinforced. Stupid Spic, probably just writing about how gringos are bad, Mexican men are hung like ponies, and all Mexican women are good in bed.

Then again, close-minded jackasses will think what they want to think, regardless of the art you choose for your column. I guess it comes down to: I find your logo offensive. How does Papi feel about it? And how do you feel about the fact that the editorial staff of the Tucson Whitely scatters your pearls of wisdom on their back pages along with the comic strips and News of the Weird? I never write to any writer because I don't think that anything I could possibly say would or should interfere with a person's right to express their opinion.

This one caught my eye. While I agree with the prof's sentiment that stereotypes can be harmful, I also strongly disagree with his approach. The prof feels that the image is offensive and somehow diminishes the article as well as Mexicanos as a whole. I can't help but feel that this guy isn't just wrong but, more to the point, this guy's attitude is what is really dangerous.

The image of "Papi Pancho Bandito" does exactly what it is supposed to do. It makes people laugh or feel offended or just catches a person's eye and makes them read the article. El Prof de Yuma doesn't want you to use the image because he was offended.

My personal opinion is "So what!? While I understand the need for positive role models for a Latin culture that can be said to be struggling, recognizing that one of every three prisoners in this country are Latin, El Prof has to agree that we as a people are succeeding also as the second-largest minority group in the country with the most college graduates. As one of the former I have to point out that this growing demand for tolerance has in fact created a culture of intolerance for all those that think and speak as they wish.

Whether it be an image of the prophet Mohammed or Papi Pancho, these images should be taken for what they are—just funny cartoons. Have a sense of humor, prof. I don't know why, but I have always called him Don Pancho. Maybe it is because he reminds me of a bastardized version of Don Francisco, who with his nicely coiffed hair and three-piece suits, offers a more contemporary representation of the Mexican hombre. I have always found the logo offensive, inappropriate and hilarious.

When you go to the movies you don't expect the director to explain the movie before you watch it you do that for yourself and you interpret it however you will. You gain insight into the meaning with your own self-introspection and discussion with friends. I don't want my own thinking done for me.

I guess I should clarify this I do not despise Michael for his decision nor would I never talk to the guy if I met him at RinCon again in fact I would probably present myself so we can have a true face-to-face discussion as I would like to get more than can ever be had on the web as Anonymous.

I also understand that he is not perfect and cannot please everyone all of the time, but at this moment I do have much less respect for him and his goals for TMG as a company trying to pass things off, that do ultimately boil down to politics.

Cole, I do actually apologize and did not mean to offend with what I had said as I let my temper get the better of me. However, I do understand what you are saying with the concept of this being censorship as well and my intent is not to get him to alter it to suit my tastes either, but ultimately to make real change in the direction of actual desires he has with the game and not to simply satisfy a user base while leaving the majority of the game that has the same issues he describes unaltered with no plans for real change apparent.

Covering up some breasts though Ryan I know this would ultimately mean more work for you so I'm really not expecting this to happen, but it should have come up MUCH sooner if it was really an issue. Doesn't bother me one way or the other. A colour changed, okay cool. I do find it odd that people are referring to the paladin as a "sex object" though; maybe I'm too laid back about that kind of thing but all I saw when I saw the original paladin was a paladin.

Were her boobs out? It had zero impact on me if they were. I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on "issues" like these because I think a lot of the time people just like to kick up a fuss, but at the end of the day if the artist and the designer want to iterate on what they have I'm not sure it really warrants flaring tempers.

What does concern me is that the introduction of all these new Heroes has obsoleted the original Heroes before they've even been released. Granted, I don't have a full grasp of all the ins and outs of the game, but some of the new Hero abilities seem to kick the originals to the curb.

Of course, I'm also annoyed by people who complain about things that they get for free, so part of my also wants to tell myself to shut up! The new artwork is a step in the right direction for me - whilst still not as good as a properly designed breastplate, it's at least not the 'stab me in the heart pls' open target that it was before now it's just a bladetrap, but as I said, it's a start, and I understand about working within a tight art budget. There may or may not be a place for skimpy attire in artwork of this nature, but on a frontline fighter is not it, so thank you!

Don't like the artwork or the perceived "politics"of a game? Go build one yourself. Maybe then they'll understand all the careful thought that goes into these tiny details. This game isn't meant to cater to one individual who believes this is a form of censorship.

It's meant for thousands maybe millions? Do I care if there are boobs? Not at all, but many gamers my age have kids to think about, and that's exactly the reason they don't watch porn while the kids play in the same room. Honestly, I never would have noticed the difference of the Paladin if I didn't scroll down and see all the comments moaning over a tiny artistic detail. I have no problems with a sexy illustration, but she is a Paladin and should have realistic armor.

Chain Mail bikinis are great for cheesecake illustrations, but it's not gonna help much in a real fight. Michael Mendes-Censorship is the suppression of public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body. While is is your company and your TMG's decision, I respect that, no matter what the choice is.

IMO the focus should be on making a well balanced, high quality game with a hopefully accurate shipping date. I'm glad the discussion is back to civility. Here's what I don't envy Michael, or any art director for that matter, has to take these sort of things into account Im a 40 year old gamer I don't envy Michael's position of telling artist that they need to change something because of this very thing We artists tend to have egos about our work and I don't think all of us respond well to criticism.

There are a ton of things to think about as you try to design something that will look fresh and exciting without being cliche or tired. I may be showing my geek card here, but I used to play as a Paladin in a Forgotten realms game, and used to revel in the piety of the character in the face of the mundane. I think a little of that seeped in here as I could argue that the open spot on her armor might even be purposeful Regardless, Fantasy is a tough genre to develop, especially in this satellite hobby of board games.

I've learned through my small time career as an illustrator, that anyone can hold any of your art against you and that translates to your client, in this case, Michael.

One sure way to avoid these discussions is to go with an overly cartoonist look. I for one am very glad Tasty Minstrel gave me a shot a semi realistic designs.

I actually have a large source folder of 'realistic' female armor reference, one that I will likely use for the dragon slayer if she is a candidate for being female. For me the paladin screamed ceremonial and not functional After all, a paladin's real armor is her faith.

Feel free to look here for more discussion worthy art. And by all means, I'll give you all a warning shot across the bow before I put the Enchantress up. Thanks for the comments, Ryan. Hopefully things can be kept civil. I appreciate the small toning down of the artwork and wanted to voice that. My opinion - not looking to start a flame way on this. Seriously, though, I like the idea that I can pull out the game as a family game, not as a dungeon crawler. Those are the types of people with whom I game the most and if the artwork depicts people in sexy poses more than "about to enter battle" poses, it does make a difference.

Ultimately - it's TMG's call on the artwork and direction of the game and I support their right to do whatever they think is best for the game. That being said, the first thing that I think of when I hear Paladin is usually a big guy in plate mail with a sword and some indication of his religious affiliation rather than a young lady, but that's me.

Same way that I usually think of a Necromancer as a somewhat old guy with black robes and skulls excepting Terry Pratchett's version, of course. Tyler seriously you just dissolved your entire argument to drivel by not understanding the issue at hand and I'm not the only one that has addressed the real concerns with this move. Apparently this "Be respectful and considerate" at the top here nor my true thoughts on Michael himself have any bearing on any hope for serious thought by people like yourself.

It's not like I always hold my best friends in the highest respect, they too do extremely stupid things and I point it out then to as I would hope they would do to me when I do stupid things and eventually we're all fine and dandy again. Any hope of an intelligent discussion about the repercussions of altering even a minute detail without consideration as to why or for what reason at this stage of the production are clearly lost on those of you who continue to simply bash the discussion of what is really wrong with this action instead of approaching it intelligently like the rational adults you are supposedly claiming to be.

I'm sure many of you so ready to change the norms of fantasy for the purpose of sheltering kids would be freaking out if Michael were to further question the norm of fantasy games and introduced a blatantly gay character to the game who was fully dressed and showed absolutely no skin.

You can't have it both ways. So Tyler "I never would have noticed the difference of the Paladin" is exactly the point. If there's no difference why even bother making the change in the first place, because it accomplishes nothing.

You really want to make a change then change everything. Again this should have been brought up much earlier and making quick decisions really isn't an excuse as they aren't not on a set schedule by a government contract and so had plenty of time to make changes they saw fit before this hit the Internet. At this point those changes would probably be entirely unreasonable to place on Ryan.

I have stated multiple times it's not the freaking artwork that frustrates me here, it's how the whole damn situation has been handled since 11am this morning.

I honestly could care less if the game had no artwork like the current Kickstarter by Springboard although an April Fools joke. This company has stated multiple times to let the game play speak for itself yet continues to speak for the game. That's the "politics" they bring upon themselves with actions like this when they basically stated they weren't sure from the beginning the artwork was ready to release. So "the careful thought that goes into these tiny details" should have come out weeks ago when it was an issue with the creator.

Ultimately, if REAL change means waiting a few extra months so that the true artistic expression is seen in the game. Fine, I'm not going anywhere, but simply changing a small, almost unrecognizable by many detail, halfway through a campaign is no different than the presidential candidates that are bashed consistently by this same crowd for flip-flopping on the issues. I really hope Michael does read these comments, because as a designer and a manager I do think he has done well for himself and his company and I respect what he has done to get there, but right now I have very little respect for this decision as it stands as a perfect example of only an illusion of change.

Anyways, I'm done again this is going nowhere and again I have to question whether it is worth the effort as I am not contributing to a better world right now and am just making it angrier. Time to go brighten someone's day with a free cup of coffee.

Peter I agree for the most part. This is a game with a lot of potential in the family game arena. Especially with kids now, there isn't the same stigma about Fantasy. That's why Im so proud to be a part of this. Chris Darden has really hit on a game that is full of fantasy flavor yet is still accessible to families. Delightedly, a majority of the suggestions have encouraged to more toward family.

As for typical Paladins and necromancers, I have to say I am thrilled that Michael has pushed me toward unconventional imagery for these It's refreshing to be able to break convention on things like this I still have no idea how Im going to do a half goblin.

Ryan, I do like the family aspect this game is taking and I am definitely interested to see where your further artwork takes you. Thank you I do understand the pressure placed on Michael and it's not that I think you yourself are directly being censored and I do like the concept of changing the norm, it's just this particular incident is a little bit bigger than that in my mind.

Maybe, I'm wrong, I don't know, but if someone doesn't stand up for something that truly matters to them for a company they generally respect, even if its online, who will? If there are further changes coming that introduce more drastic measures I welcome them as long as it's real and not an illusion. As I stated earlier, I really don't care about the stereotypes in fantasy art. But, the more I think about it, the more I realize that I recommended this game to some gamers with families because the mechanics feel like a good family game to me.

So, I take my earlier statement back and now say that I DO care about the things that I recommend because that recommendation reflects on me in some way. I'm glad that this is being made a little more family-friendly. For me, for my friends, for every other gamer out there who also cares: But I'd also like to say that if Michael and Chris and all at TMG want to make a change, or if they want to keep things the way they were, and the artist is on board with the decision, then I am also on board because I can't presume to pretend to have anywhere near the same passion and emotional investment for their product that they have.

It's their months of hard work; it's their lost sleep; it's their blood pressure pills and nervous anxiety. All I have to do is click Make Payment and then wait to open a package. For that reason, they win all arguments about what they have decided to create. Marty McFly I do whole heartedly agree, but even as Doc Brown once said "Even if your intentions are good, it can backfire drastically!

I guess I should explain why I, as a buyer, care so much. TMG has been there for me since the beginning of gaming and in a way I consider them a friend. Some of my most intimate conversations with e my partner have happened over a game of Jab! My most memorable board game experience I've had to date was had during a game of Belfort due to a game win of 1 point. I once had a very deep conversation with a real friend of mine over a game of Homesteaders and based on that same friend's review Eminent Domain was the first game I never bought.