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The law on murder, The law on slavery. God sanctions and commands it. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word. So what is being restored? The kicker here though is, she is a wife who is already Celestially Sealed to a man and she becomes Celestially Sealed to additional LIVING men and is green-lighted to sleep around with all of them! Take a deep breath. Breathe in, breathe out.

At this time, Joseph was in a lot of trouble. When else has God been so forceful about keeping his commandments? Why then would God be so forceful in getting Joseph and others to obey? That order includes men sleeping with their multiple wives polygamy and also includes women sleeping with their multiple husbands polyandry. We have proven this by the scriptures, in exactly the same fashion as Joseph and the Apostles proved things in the Lectures of Faith.

I suppose it would appeal to the swingers amongst us, however for my wife it has no appeal insert look of red blooded male disappointment here. Perhaps though, it does indeed matter. I leave that to you. It said that Abraham did something that was OK with God.

Nice of you to make that allowance. If my daughter wanted to enter a polygamist marriage, I would oppose it. I oppose mortal polygamy on practical grounds. In some ways, our religion is more open-minded than a lot of modern society. There is very little room for grammatical ambiguity in the critical verse. Whether this was ever interpreted the way it reads is another question. That only Abraham was? And knowing this is my father, mortal as he is, I can see no difference between mortal and celestial polygamy.

So I guess you being OK with celestial polygamy but not mortal polygamy seems strange to me. I see no difference in the two at all. The Grantite faction of Mormonism may not practice polygamy at the moment but the institution does shape the Mormon world view in ways that make a profound difference in the lives of our children.

According to our religion, the essence of a woman is to become one wife among others. That message has far reaching consequences for the identity of boys and girls. Polygamy is an inherently unequal and domineering institution that hurts human beings and cripples families. It may not be good for the Church but, in my opinion, it would be good for the members if we parted with beliefs that are bound to infringe on our humanity.

I see no inherent inequality in polygamy per se, but would see it in either exclusive polygyny or exclusive polyandry. I suppose I could probably get my head around the mortal practice as well. My objection is purely to how things stand in society at the present moment. As for the difference between Celestial and mortal… all I can say is that perspective changes people quite a bit.

After all, everyone involved is sealed together, and that is the requirement. It is for ALL Priesthood holders and was taken as such back in the day ish years in duration too I might add. Verse 41 also allows our Celestial Brides to take on additional Celestial Husbands. The scriptures are quite clear on these points. It is called Celestial Marriage for a reason. It appears, to me, and others, to be a system whereby Joseph could justify his polygamy and the polyandry he introduced yes, at the point of a sword held by a ticked off angel…under death threats from the God of Love.

I always felt there was a certain admirable impulse at the heart of modern polyamorous relationships, however wrongheaded the applications might become in practice. For instance, the common male impulse to sleep with many women certainly comes from a baser animal urge to propagate. But I also think it gets mixed up with an actually admirable impulse for intimacy with other people.

What is fidelity, and why does it matter? For myself, I would say that it kind of depends on the temperament of the couple and what they want and expect from their relationship. I think that LDS marriage is, in a way, expected to shoot for the ideal of total harmony and unity of purpose between the spouses. Her thoughts are my thoughts and my thoughts are her thoughts. To an certain small extent, my wife and I already do this, and so do many other couples.

This Zion is expected to be duplicated at the marital level and spouses are called upon to strive toward this ideal. A fullness of experience in and through each other. Incidentally, this is the same sort of unity often posited to be shared among the Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit indwell within each other. It is not hard to see that such extensions of self to others could be a desirable thing. But it is about the connections and how we are called to extend ourselves and reach out.

Joseph himself kind of saw things this way. He also wanted people to be bound together in covenant relationships, including the marriage covenant. For him, it was a way of bringing the human family together and the temple lies at the center of this quest for connection — both with God and with our fellow spirit brothers and sisters.

However much he botched the implementation, and however much you think he corrupted the whole thing, I think his initial impulses were quite admirable. Unfortunately, I think he made a hash of it and people suffered for it. It fell to practical-minded Brigham Young to take the bold impulses of Joseph and hammer it into something that people could actually live with.

I am quite certain it would have evolved into something quite different than what it was in the year I think for purely practical and mortal reasons, polygamy is a difficult trick to pull off. I do think it would be very difficult to acheive this level of oneness with someone if that person is simultaneously trying to merge with multiple spouses. I think that the specter of polygamy appeals to the male ego.

I have heard it said that JS displayed a high drive for extra-curricular relationships. Yes, in the strictest sense there were women with more than one husband. After watching it I wrote:. Mainline Christianity seems to almost postulate a spiritual merger with the Borg collective in the afterlife not an entirely fair description, but it is my reaction. Should read Dalai Lama. Never said that Lisa. Never said that about Christian couples. Seth, the purpose of Mormon polygyny was not to establish parity between men and women but to give church leaders such as Joseph Smith access to the wives of junior members and gentiles.

It fulfills the prophesy of Samuel who warned the Israelites not to submit to any king except for God, for a king will disrespect husbands and fathers. Liberal democracy is about holding the powerful accountable. That includes sexual accountability, not necessarily in a monogamous puritan sense but leaders are no longer allowed to compel sex.

When Smith asserted that sexual limitations no longer apply to himself, he must not have been aware that he was striking at the core of liberal democracy as the means of non-violent conflict resolution. Such conditions undo the foundations of civilization and return us to the law of the jungle. Regicide becomes the only way to bring about a change of government. Wife swapping implies an exchange. The section allows Joseph Smith to intrude on the marriage of other men but forbids his wife to cavort with other men.

The original post seems to be making the argument that multiple spouses worked both ways. I agree with you, Seth, that the exploration of motives is a tricky business. Fortunately, I can rely on the objective consequences of his actions to sustain my argument. The fact of the matter is that Joseph did behave in a way that turned out to be self-destructive. From Old Testament prophet Samuel to the founding fathers, Nobel Price winning political economists and primate anthropologists, we have established conclusively that violence becomes inevitable when power is unaccountable and when the mighty can legitimately threaten our lives, property and our families.

Whatever Joseph Smith may or may not have believed, the fact of the matter is that he behaved like an alpha male chimpanzee and a foolish one at that. Whatever his conscious rationale may have been, in the end, Smith acted in a way that is much better explained by subconscious dynamics than by the will of God. Whenever a new charismatic religion emerges in America, the founders have sex with their followers.

Like Joseph Smith, they all invoke the will of god. Charismatic religious founders will invoke divine sanction to have sex with their followers. There is no more effective way to assert your spot on top of the pecking order than having sex with the wives and daughters of your supporters. I actually agree with him.

Polygamy was about power but sex and power are not mutually exclusive. Sex, power, and property are essentially intertwined. Be that as it may, ultimately, such behavior is only sustainable if the alpha male is able to violently dominate his flock. In the process, a sexually imposing alpha male becomes less secure himself. As Joseph Smith was not sovereign, he did not have enough power to survive that dynamic. Had he taken the lessons of the founding fathers to heart and respected the rights of his followers rather than removing all constraints from himself then Joseph Smith would probably have lived a lot longer.

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