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Widtsoe Bookcraft, pp. An example from the U. Census records , which Elder Widtsoe referred to, indicates that in there were 5, males and 4, females in Hancock County, Illinois Nauvoo being the primary population center. Counting just those persons between the ages of 15 and 40, there were 2, men and 1, women. A related justification for polygamy is that polygamy was an effective way to rapidly increase the membership of the Church. However, a group of women can have far more children if they each have their own husband instead of sharing one man.
For example, Brigham Young reportedly had only 57 children by some 29 child-bearing wives out of the 55 total women he married. If each of those women had their own husbands they may have had or more children in total. The essay focuses on polygamy between and after Joseph Smith. Footnote 6 in that essay states in part:. Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.
This admission is interesting as it seems to counter what the Church said in their other essay on:. Years later in Utah, participants in Nauvoo plural marriage discussed their motives for entering into the practice. God declared in the Book of Mormon that monogamy was the standard; at times, however, He commanded plural marriage so His people could "raise up seed unto [Him].
The problem with the above quote is that it has footnote 45 which says to see footnote 6 of the essay "Plural Marriage and Families in Early Utah" which we have referenced above. So what is it: The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants called the Book of Commandments, included a section denying any practice of polygamy:.
The Doctrine and Covenants replaced the Book of Commandments in , and this statement on polygamy was in every single edition until , when the Doctrine and Covenants first included section justifying plural marriage. It would have been contradictory to have one section condemning polygamy and another approving of it in the same book so the section condemning polygamy was removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife ; and concubines he shall have none; for I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women.
And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. That fact that Latter-day Saints practiced polygamy in the early days of the Church is well known.
What a lot of people don't know, though, is that polygamy was first practiced by Joseph Smith and not Brigham Young. Joseph was secretive about his practice of polygamy, even lying about it. By the time the Saints went to Utah, the Church was more open about, with Brigham Young officially announcing it in Church-published media almost never mention Joseph's polygamy. There are some references to the other prophet's plural marriages but not for Joseph. By rarely mentioning Joseph's polygamous marriages, many church members, especially converts, often don't realize how involved Joseph was.
See " MormonThink provides a response to those who say members should have known more about Joseph Smith's polygamy. It seems that it would lend greater credibility to the practice of polygamy if it was plainly taught that Joseph introduced and practiced polygamy since Joseph is the most revered of the Latter-day prophets. Finding this out was the catalyst for the split in the RLDS church between those that held on to the original concept of a divinely established church and those that now believe that Joseph was merely inspired and that the Book of Mormon is not historical.
Denial of Joseph's involvement in polygamy was reinforced by Emma Smith Joseph's first wife. Emma purposely lied to her children and told them that their father did not practice polygamy. She wanted to spare her children the pain of knowing the truth. No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of…He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have.
The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it.
It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction. Fanny Alger was a teen-aged servant in the Smith's home. Joseph and Emma had "adopted" Fanny when she was about 16 years old She is believed to be either Joseph Smith's first polygamous "wife" or simply a sexual encounter.
The Church's essay, "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo," says it was a marriage, whereas Lawrence Foster said, "…contemporary evidence strongly suggests that Smith sustained sexual relations with Fanny Alger, it does not indicate that this was viewed either by Smith himself or by his associates at the time as a 'marriage. Critics believe he had an affair with her, was found out, and then introduced the concept of plural marriage in order to justify and continue his affair with her and then other women.
Some historians record the date of the "marriage" as early as , while others believe it was , putting Fanny's age anywhere from Fanny departed the Smith home sometime in , the same year Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated for revealing Joseph Smith's "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's. Warren Parrish, the secretary of Joseph for a period of time, told Benjamin Johnson that he and Oliver Cowdery knew the report of an affair between Joseph and the girl to be true, for they "were spied upon and found together.
Regardless of whether Joseph Smith's relations with Fanny Alger was merely a sexual encounter or a "marriage," it was adulterous. However, Joseph could only be legally married to one person , and even if it is claimed that the "marriage" was a symbolic "celestial only" sealing, the sealing power was not restored until April , after Joseph's "marriage" to Fanny.
Whether Joseph's "marriage" to Fanny Alger occurred in or , it was illegal both under the laws of the land and under any theory of divine authority.
Plural marriages are rooted in the notion of "sealing" for time and eternity. It is claimed that the "sealing power" was restored 3 April when Elijah appeared to Joseph and committed the sealing keys into his hands. Until that time no one on earth had authority to "seal" Joseph and Fanny. As a result, his marriage to her was a nullity from the beginning both in time and eternity, and any sexual relationship he had with her was adulterous.
Following his marriage to Louisa Beaman and before he married other single women, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married. In other words, Joseph "married" or was "sealed" to women who were already legally wedded to other men at the time. Following is a list of Joseph's wives that we know of some researchers estimate that the number may have been higher.
Why it may have been that some men were willing to allow Joseph Smith to "marry" their wife is because they had the same attitude as Jedediah M. Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young. In this sermon, delivered 19 February , Grant said emphasis added:. When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right and on the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel.
Says one brother to another, "Joseph says all covenants are done away, and none are binding but the new covenants: And righteous men in every dispensation since the creation, if they had any keys, had the keys of the kingdom of God; and they extended over this wide world wherever God had a people and a government; and just as far as the Priesthood exercised its authority, just so far the rule of the Almighty reached.
If Joseph had a right to dictate me in relation to salvation, in relation to a hereafter, he had a right to dictate me in relation to all my earthly affairs, in relation to the treasures of the earth, and in relation to the earth itself. He had a right to dictate in relation to the cities of the earth, to the natives of the earth, and in relation to everything on land and on sea.
That is what he had a right to do, if he had any right at all. If he did not have that right, he did not have the Priesthood of God, he did not have the endless Priesthood that emanates from an eternal being. A Priesthood that is clipped, and lacks length, is not the Priesthood of God; if it lacks depth, it is not the Priesthood of God; for the Priesthood in ancient times extended over the wide world, and coped with the universe, and had a right to govern and control the inhabitants thereof, to regulate them, give them laws, and execute those laws.
That power looked like the Priesthood of God. This same Priesthood has been given to Joseph Smith, and has been handed down to his successors. I do not care how many devils rap, it is no trouble to me. I say, rap away, and give as many revelations as you please, whether you are good spirits or bad ones, it does not trouble my cranium.
Rap away, for I trust in the anchor of my soul that is sure and steadfast, in the Priesthood of God upon the earth. What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? He would say, "Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God. He did not, but in that thing was the grand thread of the Priesthood developed.
The grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got.
One such man who may have at one time thought like Grant was Henry Bailey Jacobs. He was a faithful member of the Mormon Church and active in Nauvoo society.
From Henry was constantly called on missions, serving eight of them during this period 4 Zinas: Signature Books, , p. Signature Books, , pp. A month later Zina there is no record that Henry was there returned to the temple for her second anointing and, while still married to Henry, she was sealed to Brigham Young for not just eternity, but also for time. Grandin Book Company, , p. Although quite ill, in mid Henry accepted the prophet's Brigham Young call and went to England as a missionary, leaving his legally married wife, Zina, and newborn child behind.
On Henry's way home from his mission, he received a letter from Zina saying she'd moved in with her husband Brigham. Later she bore a child with Brigham. Zina my mind never will change from Worlds without Ends, no never, the same affection is there and never can be moved I do not murmur nor complain of the handlings of God no verily, no but I feel alone and no one to speak to, to call my own.
I feel like a lamb without a mother, I do not blame any person or persons, no--May the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham and all purtains unto him forever. Tell him for me I have no feelings against him nor never had, all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our god Joseph [Smith].
Such a story seems to disprove any claims that polyandrous marriages were simply an opportunity for salvation for women who needed it. From all accounts, Henry was a faithful Mormon, worthy of serving many missions.
Why wasn't Zina sealed to him in instead of Brigham Young? Whether Henry Jacob "consented" to Zina's sealings to other men or not,from reading his journals, he obviously didn't like the idea. Nothing supports that Henry was offered an easy yes or no choice that he could turn down without consequences.
Members then and now follow the leaders of the Church believing that those leaders speak for God. If Zina and Henry really believed Joseph and Brigham were prophets, they might follow whatever they were asked remember all the good men, including bishops and stake presidents, who killed men, women and children at the Mountains Meadow Massacre all because they thought this is what Brigham Young wanted? At any rate, this is not something that any man should be asked to sacrifice.
Although Henry eventually remarried three times, after Brigham Young told him that his wife and children belonged to Brigham and not to Henry, he continued to yearn for Zina and their children. There doesn't seem to be any logical or religious reason why Joseph and then Brigham would take Henry Jacob's wife, Zina and their children, from him. Would a just God direct Joseph and Brigham to treat this faithful man in such a manner?
Not all people thought Joseph's supposed priesthood authority allowed him to behave the way he did. Joseph not only paid his addresses to the young and unmarried women, but he sought 'spiritual alliance' with many married ladies… He taught them that all former marriages were null and void, and that they were at perfect liberty to make another choice of a husband.
The marriage covenants were not binding, because they were ratified only by Gentile laws…. One woman said to me not very long since, while giving me some of her experiences in polygamy: This woman, and others, whose experience has been very similar, are among the very best women in the church; they are as pure-minded and virtuous women as any in the world.
They were seduced under the guise of religion,…. Some of these women have since said they did not know who was the father of their children ; this is not to be wondered at, for after Joseph's declaration annulling all Gentile marriages, the greatest promiscuity was practiced ; and, indeed, all sense of morality seemed to have been lost by a portion at least of the church.
Polyandry also runs counter to the entire notion of eternal families. As we understand it, children are sealed to their father and the wife is sealed to the father, and in that means the entire family is sealed together. If in these cases the women were sealed to Joseph, then who were the children sealed to? If they were sealed to the woman's first husband, then the woman would not be sealed to them. If they were sealed to Joseph, then the poor first husband would not only be deprived of his wife, but also of his children in the eternity.
So much for the plan of happiness. It appears that Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children, regardless of whether he had sex with them or not. What right did he have to do that? Was he simply taking advantage of his authority as prophet?
The following is taken from Would you share your spouse with the Prophet? He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife.
Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience.
Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test. Shortly afterward, the two men took some of Bennett's sewing to Sarah's house.
During the visit, as Bennett describes it, Joseph said, "Sister Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted me, as God granted holy men of old, and as I have long looked upon you with favor, and an earnest desire of connubial bliss, I hope you will not repulse or deny me.
I have one good husband, and that is enough for me. Finally Sarah angrily told him on a subsequent visit, "Joseph, if you ever attempt any thing of the kind with me again, I will make a full disclosure to Mr. Pratt on his return home. Depend upon it, I will certainly do it. Will you promise me that you will not do it? Pratt" by Richard A. Van Wagoner, Dialogue , Vol.
He further explained that Joseph came to the Law home in the middle of the night when William was absent and told Jane that "the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory. She did so and further explained that Joseph had "asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband" Jane refused the Prophet, and according to William Law's 20 January letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, Smith then considered the couple apostates.
That Smith admired and lusted after many men's wives and daughters, is a fact, but they could not help that. They or most of them considered his admiration an insult, and treated him with scorn. In return for this scorn, he generally managed to blacken their reputations--see the case of … Mrs.
Pratt, a good, virtuous woman. Sarah later recalled that "Joseph Smith taught me the principle of marriage for eternity, and the doctrine of plural marriage. He said that in teaching this he realized that he jeopardized his life; but God had revealed it to him many years before as a privilege with blessings, now God had revealed it again and instructed him to teach with commandment, as the Church could travel [progress] no further without the introduction of this principle.
Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet's invitation, asking that he "teach it to someone else. On 19 May , at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then "threw across the room" a revelation to Kimball which declared that "Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions" against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he "shall be accursed. She remained married to Adam Lightner throughout.
She married Brigham on May 22 when she was 26 years old. It was repeated in the Nauvoo Temple on Jan 17,, Brigham She also recorded it herself. However Brigham asked Mary if she wanted to go West with his group and she said yes but he left her behind.
Prescendia Celestia, Joseph and Eliza. The following is from a love letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K.
Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann, whom Smith had secretly married without Emma's knowledge three weeks prior to this time. Very clearly the women involved must be virgins.
Because the idea of the LDS Church's founding prophet, Joseph Smith, married other men's wives is hard enough for current members to imagine, having sexual relations with another man's wife is even more repugnant, often causing cognitive dissonance.
To try and rationalize Joseph's behavior they invent a narrative in which Joseph's "marriages" were simply platonic "sealings" and he was not committing adultery. For many years critics spent a lot of time and ink proving that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with other women besides Emma because the Church and its apologists either denied it or ignored it. It is no longer necessary to provide all of that proof since the Church and its most prominent polygamy defenders now acknowledge such sexual relations.
During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations.
Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings. This quote is the closest the Church has come to saying that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with women other than Emma. It is couched in language in such a way that attempts to soften the blow by using the words "eternity only," and "possibility. Regardless, it doesn't matter whether Joseph had one adulterous relationship or 33—adultery is adultery.
It appears that much of Hales' work was used in the creation of the Church's essay, "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo. This link has more concerning the sexual relations Joseph had and we encourage you to read it. These quotes are the acknowledgment that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with at least one woman other than his one legally wedded wife, Emma Hale Smith, and therefore Joseph was indeed an adulterer.
This opens a new can or worms in which the attempt by the apologists have switched from determining whether or not Joseph had sexual relations to defining what adultery is and defining what a legal marriage is. This becomes an exhausting exercise. The critic typically contends that a definition for adultery is pretty simple: It becomes convoluted because the apologist wants to reframe the debate by looking at a new interpretation for what constitutes adultery and how one interprets "marriage" and the marriage contract: This is an excellent topic to apply Occam's Razor to.
To convince someone that there are nuanced and different definitions for marriage and adultery, a lot of effort must be spent in weaving that tapestry, including denying or creatively interpreting Joseph's own writings and denials. This means that Joseph was involved in adulterous relationships because he was not legally married to any of the women, besides Emma, with whom he had sex.
Not only was Joseph guilty of adultery, but the women to whom he was "married" who were legally married to other men were also committing adultery:. According to Doctrine and Covenants , one of the purposes of polygamy was to produce children:.
See the section above about what the Church's Book of Commandments had to say about polygamy and fornication. The essay tries to lessen the impact that Helen was so young by employing the interesting phrase, "several months before her 15th birthday. There is little documentary evidence of the "marriage," but it is supported by Eliza R.
Snow and Orson F. Whitney Helen Mar Kimball Whitney's son. As to her age, she was either 14 or Having one year-old to reconcile is hard, having a second one would increase the pressure to justify Joseph's behavior. Hales continues with a tidbit that tries to lessen the impact:.
If, as Utah evidence supports, conjugal relations were not included until plural wives were more mature, it is possible that the Prophet allowed the sealing, anticipating that when Nancy Maria was older, Emma would have become more accepting of full polygamy. Since there is no other evidence concerning Nancy's union, the rest of this section deals with Helen, who did leave plenty of evidence. There seems to be four main areas of controversy or dispute among critics and apologists when it comes to Helen's "marriage" to Joseph Smith:.
It is shocking to hear that Helen Mar Kimball was only 14 when Joseph "married" her because in our day we tend to think of it as too young. But was it "too young" in Helen's day?
The state of Illinois statute concerning this age says:. All male persons over the age of 17 years, and females over the age of 14 years, may contract and be joined in marriage: Provided, in all cases where either party is a minor, the consent of parents or guardians be first had, as is hereinafter required. Revised Statutes of , sec.
Gross, editor, The Statutes of Illinois: Gross, , p. Even though marriageable age with the consent of a parent was 14, such marriages were by no means common. In the 's the singulate mean age at marriage for females was Two other tables that may be of interest: Although we flinch today, according to the laws of the time, Helen, legally , was not "too young" and Joseph was within his legal rights to marry Helen with her parents' consent at that age.
However , Joseph was not within his legal rights to marry anyone, no matter their age, because he was already legally married to Emma. This begs the question, Why marry Helen? There seems to be no logical reason for Joseph Smith to pursue relationships with any person besides his one legal wife, let alone girls as young as The "age of consent" means the age at which a person can legally consent to having sexual relations.
Historically, that age was quite low in the United States, typically years of age. In Illinois, even by , the age of consent was only 10 years old. By the 's nearly all of the states had moved the age up, to where most of them stand today, in the year-old range. The idea that Joseph Smith would have sex with a year-old shocks the reader: However, if Joseph Smith was legally married to Helen he was not , then even though we may shudder to think about it, it would have been legal for them to have sexual relations.
Just because something is legal , does it make it morally right? But since Joseph was not legally married to Helen, and since he was already legally married to one woman, and since he was in sexual relations with other women, one must wonder about the motives of that man. Why marry someone so young? Why cheat her out of a normal youth and marriage? That being said, there is no direct evidence implicating Joseph Smith in having sexual relations with Helen Kimball.
There are only circumstantial hints that maybe it happened. Some of the more credible evidence include:. Two LDS scriptures, Jacob 2: If that wasn't Joseph's aim, why did he marry Helen? In May , Joseph "married" four teenage girls: Three of these "marriages" involved sexual relations:.
Maria Lawrence - a year after Joseph "married" Maria, William Law, filed suit accusing Joseph of being "in an open state of adultery" with Maria Lawrence. The first indictment was dismissed, but William Law filed a second time.
The jurors in the second indictment found there was "good and sufficient evidence" that Joseph Smith. It was specifically because of the indictment brought against him that with a couple of days he gave his speech in which he claimed "I had not been married scarcely five minutes…before it was reported that I had seven wives.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. Sarah Lawrence - In , Lucy Walker said: Wife of Joseph Smith, Jr.
Neal, "Sword of Laban," no. Its wording is identical to the December 17, , Joseph F. Smith, Affidavit, October 24, Since it is known that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with three of the four girls he "married" in May , what would preclude him from having sexual relations with the third, Helen?
I heard [Helen] say to her mother, I will never be sealed to my Father, meaning as a wife and I would never have been sealed married to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony.
I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. Whether "had I known it was any thing more than ceremony" means sexual relations or not is left to the reader.
I remember how I felt, but which would be a difficult matter to describe-the various thoughts, fears and temptations that flashed through my mind when the principle was first introduced to me by my father [Heber C.
Kimball], who one morning in the summer of , without any preliminaries, asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives, can be better imagined than told. But suffice it to say the first impulse was anger, for I thought he had only said it to test my virtue. My sensibilities were painfully touched.
I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, "No, I wouldn't!
I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right. This first interview had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.
When he found after the first outburst of displeasure for supposed injury and I received it meekly, he took the first opportunity to introduce Sarah Ann to me as Joseph's Wife.
This astonished me beyond measure. Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, , Autobiography c. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart—when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied "If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say. She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me.
I did not try to conceal the fact of its having been a trial, but confessed that it had been one of the severest of my life; but that it had also proven one of the greatest of blessings.
I could truly say it had done the most towards making me a Saint and a free woman, in every sense of the word; and I knew many others who could say the same, and to whom it had proven one of the greatest boons—a "blessing in disguise. Living in a climate of polygamy, it's easy to see that over time Helen would come to champion the cause and put away any concerns she may have had when she was first "married" to Joseph Smith.
No one but Helen herself can say for sure if at the time she enjoyed being a polygamous wife of Joseph. Following are some accounts surrounding the event. Before Joseph and Heber discussed 14 year-old Helen as a potential bride, Joseph asked Heber to turn over his wife, Vilate, to be Joseph's wife.
During the summer of , shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate.
Biography of Heber C. It is theorized by some that Joseph's "test" requesting Vilate as a wife was to prepare Heber for Joseph's later asking for Helen. The following is used to imply that Joseph marrying Helen was Heber's idea:. Who, though, decided that being "connected with the Prophet, Joseph" was something desirable, Heber or Joseph himself? Even if Heber liked that idea and he's the one who asked Helen to marry Joseph, it does not mean that the genesis for the idea was Heber.
Nor does the word "offered" mean that Heber came up with the original idea. Helen's later reminiscence that "My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar" may even hint at such a situation as Abraham's. She also said, "The Latter-day Saints would not enter into this holy order of matrimony unless they had received some stronger and more convincing proofs of its correctness than the testimony of a man, for in obeying this law it has cost them a sacrifice nearly equal to that of Abraham.
Helen said that it was Joseph himself who claimed that Heber was the one who "offered" Helen to him. But why should we take Joseph's word for it? He is known to have lied to others, including his wife, Emma, about many aspects of polygamy such as hiding the entire idea of polygamy from his wife, Emma, and the fact that he had already married other women without Emma knowing.
Why not lie to another one of his wives if it served his purposes? See our section below about Joseph lying about polygamy. Heber must have learned about polygamy from Joseph first before he taught the principle to Helen. As far as the time line goes, if Heber is the one who had the idea, within a 24 hour period he would have had teach Helen about it, show up unannounced and explain the proposition to Joseph, then have Joseph show up the following day at the Kimball's to convince Helen that if she followed this plan that her father concocted, her father's family would be blessed.
Such a scenario on such short notice is unconvincing. Joseph taught Heber about polygamy at some point before Heber mentioned it to Helen. It could very well be that Joseph at that time mentioned his desire to have Helen as his wife. It stands to reason that as prophet, Joseph chose who he would enter into a polygamous relationship. There are no other examples of a person approaching the prophet and instigating a polygamous relationship.
Finally, it was not unheard of for Joseph to have someone else to ask for, or convince, his intended bride on his behalf, such as in the case of Zina Diantha Huntington as revealed in an interview with her:. How, then, could you have been sealed to Joseph Smith without first having heard the doctrine of plural marriage?
My brother Dimick told me what Joseph had told him. I knew it was from the Lord, and I received it. Joseph did not come until afterward. You mean by that, then, that after your brother Dimick had returned to Joseph and given him the information that you had accepted such teaching, that Joseph then came to you, prior to having been sealed, and taught you the doctrine of plural marriage?
I told you that the Lord had revealed to Joseph Smith that he was to marry me. I received it from Joseph through my brother Dimick. John Wight, "Evidence from Zina D. There is no reason not to believe that it was Joseph's idea all along to marry Helen, yet there is no way of knowing for sure who is the instigator. The most important aspect from the discussion above concerning whose idea it was to marry off Helen pinpoints what we believe is the most problematic issue regarding Helen's "marriage" to Joseph: I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.
I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this…I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me…What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practiced among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion.
We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children. Also found in Elder's Journal , Vol 1, No. On Dec 16, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church from Liberty Jail which included the following:. Was it for committing adultery that we were assailed?
We are aware that that false slander has gone abroad, for it has been reiterated in our ears. These are falsehoods also. The world hates them, and we sometimes think that the devil ought to be ashamed of them. We have heard that it is reported by some, that some of us should have said, that we not only dedicated our property, but our families also to the Lord; and Satan, taking advantage of this, has perverted it into licentiousness, such as a community of wives, which is an abomination in the sight of God.
History of the Church Vol. As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.
By the time Smith had dismissed Bennett in the summer of , Smith had taken the following "spiritual wives" for himself in Nauvoo:. That's twelve women documented as Joseph Smith's plural wives, during the period in which Smith placed responsibility for the entire polygamy practice on Bennett.
In a speech at the temple, on February 21, where many of his "plural wives" were in attendance , Smith had the audacity to state the following:. There is a great noise in the city…and many are saying there cannot be so much smoke without some fire. Well, be it so. If the stories about Joe Smith are true, then the stories of John C. Bennett are true about the ladies of Nauvoo; and he says that the Ladies' Relief Society are all organized of those who are to be the wives of Joseph Smith.
Ladies, you know whether this is true or not. History of the Church , Vol. Because his "plural wives" in the audience had been sworn to secrecy, Smith felt confident enough to stand before them and lie unabashedly. Emily Dow Partridge, for instance, testified that she and her sister were married to Joseph without Emma's consent emphasis added:. We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March , Elder Heber C.
Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterward she consented to give her husband two wives, providing he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed.
Accordingly on the 11th of May, , we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence,… From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy. We remained in the family several months after this, but things went from bad to worse until we were obligated to leave the house and find another home. Historical Record , Vol.
Notice how Joseph sought to cover up the fact that he was already married to Eliza and Emily Partridge. The Mormon author John J. Brodie included a list of 48 women who may have been married to Joseph Smith.
Ivins, who was considered to be "one of the great authorities on Mormon polygamy," said that the number of Joseph Smith's wives "can only be guessed at, but it might have gone as high as sixty or more. Moreover, a great many distinguished women in history, including several Catholic saints, were also sealed to Joseph Smith in Utah. Widtsoe admitted that "Women no longer living, whether in Joseph's day or later, have also been sealed to the Prophet for eternity.
Joseph went to great lengths to conceal his practice of plural marriage. Michael Marquardt discovered that he even had a pretended marriage performed to cover up his own marriage to Sarah Ann Whitney. On July 27,, Joseph gave a revelation to Newel K. Whitney, that he was to seal his daughter, Sarah Ann, "to Joseph Smith, to be his wife. Kingsbury and Heber C. Kimball, Marquardt reveals how he uncovered the fact that Joseph Smith actually performed a "pretended" marriage ceremony between Sarah Ann Whitney and Joseph C.
Kingsbury so that his own relationship with her would not be noticed. Marquardt cited the following from "The History of Joseph C. Kingsbury," a document that is now in the Western Americana section of the University of Utah Library:.
According to the diary of Joseph's private secretary, William Clayton, Smith would even go so far as to initiate a fake excommunication from the Church to make it appear that he did not believe in polygamy:. J…began to tell me that E. William Clayton's Diary , Oct. Would God command Joseph to secretly take his wife's fellow presidency members in the Nauvoo Relief Society as well as many others as his own plural wives?
Could it be proper or Godly for Joseph to publicly deny such behaviors and privately practice them? Would a true prophet ever secretly take other men's wives because of his position, stating that he was either testing the faith of their husbands, or offering these women a greater chance for exaltation in the eternities because of his position of authority?
It is well documented that Joseph married several women before telling Emma. Would it be proper to keep such information from his own wife? Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage , p. In addition to the public denials of polygamy by Joseph Smith himself, many public denials were done by his close associates. Joseph's Brother Hyrum had an article published in the Times and Seasons in March of italics in original:.
I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrine , for there is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practiced here.
And any man that is found teaching privately or publicly any such doctrine, is culpable, and will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, and lose his license and membership also: Remember that Hyrum who had plural wives at the time of this article was the one who took the copy of the polygamy revelation to Emma Smith to try to convince her to accept the idea of polygamy. So the Church's own current scriptures say that Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy before July 12, Note that even though Bennett had been out of the picture for more than a year, Smith was still publicly calling polygamy a "false and corrupt doctrine.
Smith still denied all of it. Joseph successfully inculcated his brother Hyrum into the litany of lies. Note also the utter hypocrisy of Hyrum saying that men caught teaching polygamy were subject to lose their church membership.
Obviously, seeing as how Hyrum and Joseph both were polygamists, his prevarication convicts both of them. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that "we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Inasmuch as the public mind has been unjustly abused through the fallacy of Dr. Bennett's letters, we make an extract on the subject of marriage, showing the rule of the church on this important matter. The extract is from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and is the only rule allowed by the church. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband.
According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed, by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the holy Spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by their names: All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled.
All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that husbands, parents and masters who exercise control over their wives, children, and servants and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin.
We have given the above rule of marriage as the only one practiced in this church , to show that Dr. Bennett's "secret wife system" is a matter of his own manufacture; and further to disabuse the public ear, and shew that the said Bennett and his misanthropic friend Origen Bachelor, are perpetrating a foul and infamous slander upon an innocent people, and need but be known to be hated and despise. In support of this position, we present the following certificates: We the undersigned members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and residents of the city of Nauvoo, persons of families do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants , and we give this certificate to show that Dr.
Bennett's "secret wife system" is a creature of his own make as we know of no such society in this place nor never did. We the undersigned members of the ladies' relief society, and married females do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints save the one contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants , and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.
Bennett's "secret wife system" is a disclosure of his own make. Cleveland, Counsellor,; Eliza R. Snow, Secretary; Mary C. Marks; Rosannah Marks; Polly Z. Johnson; Angeline Robinson; Abigail Works. Times And Seasons , Saturday, October 1, , Newel even performed the ceremony. Snow signed the documents and she was married to Joseph Smith in June The next month, Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; but their deaths did not stop the lying about polygamy:.
Note that at the time, several dozen Mormon men were active polygamists, and the "revelation on celestial marriage" had still not been voted on, or accepted as official practiceso Mormon leaders continued their public lies about secret polygamy. We are accused here of polygamy,… and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief;… I shall content myself by reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us containing some of the articles of our Faith.
By , Mormon leaders were sharing their lies about polygamy to an international audience. At the time he published his tract, wherein he quoted verbatim from the "Article on Marriage," Taylor had seven wives. A few years later, a Mormon publication admitted that Joseph Smith sinned by taking his plural wives before his "revelation": To have done otherwise, would have been a great transgression.
Of course, at that time, the documentation of the dates of Joseph's plural marriages was only known by a few top Mormons; it was not until LDS historian Andrew Jenson began delving into Church Archives in the 's that the names and dates began to be established. Few Mormons realized the scope of Smith's polygamy, or that he took plural wives many years before his alleged "revelation. A man that violated this law in the Doctrine and Covenants, edition, until the acceptance of that revelation by the church, violated the law of the church if he practiced plural marriage.
Yes sir, he would have been cut off from the church, I think I should have been if I had. Before the giving of that revelation in if a man married more wives than one who were living at the same time, he would have been cut off from the church. It would have been adultery under the laws of the church and under the laws of the state, too. The evidence is over-whelming that Joseph and other church leaders lied about practicing polygamy.
In the one instance where Smith hinted publicly of an approval of polygamy, it caused such an uproar among church members that he quickly issued a clarification stating that his remarks had referred to "former times," meaning Old Testament events. Not surprisingly, publication of the Peace Maker created a brief furor in Nauvoo. For nearly six months, the Church had been recovering from the impact of the devastating John C.
Bennett apostasy and his series of wild allegations about lurid polygamous debaucheries in the Church. Bennett's History of the Saints had come out in late September; yet only a month later—seemingly with the authorization of top Mormon leaders—an account defending polygamy was published. A sometimes reliable contemporary source for Nauvoo gossip, Oliver Olney, expressed what must have been a common opinion when he said, "If the pamphlet was not written by the authorities of the Church, it by them was revised in Jacobs [sic] name.
He denied that he had seen it in advance or that he would have printed it had he known its contents. Significantly, however, Smith defended the author's right to publish such opinions. And more importantly, he did not make any criticisms of the extraordinary claims to authority made by the pamphlet—claims that in effect would have threatened to supercede his own leadership.
In the tense political situation in Nauvoo following the Bennett fiasco, Joseph Smith had moved to centralize all power in his own hands. WM have it backwards. Sorry, dude, wrong use of the word. WM have been brainwashed by these feminists that they have to fall into line, if they want some poontang that night.
So, get this into your brain. I bring home the bacon, she cooks it. I work as many as hours as I need, and she waits at home with no outside help all day with our daughter.
She never complains that I am not home enough, blah, blah, blah. What fkg difference does that make? Its your kids that matter! Mass fkg shootings every Gd damn week. Does that happen in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, Germany???????? Look at the fkg differences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My parents are very well retired now, with million dollar homes and stuffed bank accounts.
Long ways from raiding the trash bins. Different generation Lance, or rather a lost generation. And that takes time, dude. Resorting to argument ad hominem is as old as Aristotle. You probably have no clue what I am talking about.
Your lawyer wife would likely understand. She understands the rules of engagement when debating. They are not the same rules of engagement that are used on a battlefield.
Just trying to edify you a little Rodney. But I am sure she will agree with you if you tell her you disagree. I guess we will never know. Even if you think you do. Second, I never intended to insult anybody. I apologize if my perceptions insulted you. I sincerely mean that. I was just trying to inject a little reasonable perspective into the conversation. Third, I expected virulent responses from some people. I can take it. You see, my mother raised me better than that.
God rest her soul. So you flail away on your tirade all you want. I was just trying to make a point about ALL American women. Because they are not ALL the same. Any more than ALL American men are assholes. I hear that too sometimes. That has nothing to do with Feminism, or whatever ills you think have befallen on this country. The fact of the matter is that the lack of civility and respect is the real problem.
Both the Left and the Right. And we wonder why this country is so screwed up. Finally, my mother did teach me and my brother to treat a lady like a lady. And I do expect the same in return. The last one disrespected me. In spite of my deep respect, care, concern and affection for her, as well as my deep and abiding love and devotion to her daughter for five years.
Those are not my opinions. Those are the opinions of family, friends, other parents, teachers, and many others who witnessed how much I loved this women in spite of her personal issues. She was some Christian wannabe who decided to screw the Reverend of her church and then leave me.
She was a wallflower. Screwed up in the head by the Bible, him, and all her own B. Took me for a heart-wrenching ride. So I have my problems with American women. But I am not going to say they are all Feminist B! Because they are not. That was my point. Just a lot of screwed up little girls. I cannot make someone happy who is terminally unhappy.
I am not offended. In fact, I expected that my post would draw criticism and commentary. I just did not expect such a virulent and angry response from anyone here. I like this site. You have delivered Scott. I sincerely appreciate your time and effort. And Former Canadian has even offered to talk to me as well about his experiences.
I wish everyone here luck. We are a different breed who attempt to walk this road to EE seeking love and happiness. Most men — and women — think we have lost our minds. Which is why few people in my circle even knows I am doing this. I feel certain I will quiet the naysayers. Finally, I would simply say that each of us here brings a unique perspective to the table, and we are searching overseas for different reasons and motivations.
But again, your parents and grandparents lived in a different society with different values. Let me tell you a story; Several years ago I used to help an American delegation in Ukraine. And suddenly they found out that they were NOT in the center of attention like they were used to in America!
Even American males were engaged in conversations with local Ukrainian females!!!! What a shock, eh? On the final note: Just got back from my Ukrainian language class, learning Russian as well. I did not tell my lady about this at all, but the first time in person, when I attempted to speak to her in her language, she grabbed my hand and squeezed so hard. She could not believe I would do this for her and her family.
In the west a WW would demand this of a man. After she checked out his bank accounts, his house and the list goes on.
One demands and the other appreciates. One wants a gentleman and a true man, while the other wants what she wants only.
Happy New Year and Merry Christmas! I leave for a couple of weeks to visit my parents and the site is just buzzing…interesting points and thanks for sharing Lance!
Once you spend some extended time out of the Anglosphere I think your views about WW will change. I appreciate all of the feedback. There is no doubt I cannot know or understand what these younger generations are like. So I have to respect your perspectives on that count. All I know is that I am going to Ukraine come Hell or high water to find love. With my dick in her freezer, just like most of the other American women I have been with over the years.
I think I will stick with finding a younger, beautiful Ukrainian woman. Hi Lance, I wanted to actually thank you for your post here. Not because I agree with everything but it reminded me of my biggest problem with dating WW and why I ended up going East. I also was very much raised by a similar woman and her husband. She was tough as nails but also still loving and generous.
I searched for years always thinking that perhaps there was something wrong with me. For me the point of feminism should only be that men and women see each other as equally important. We are different, and that will not change. And we each have roles that create a balance in a family that historically works.
They spit on the very idea that a woman who holds to traditional ideals has any value in society. This is because they judge everything by the money it produces. The breakdown of family values and traditional ideals is to blame for how western society has evolved into the shit pile it is today. The women like our mothers simply do not exist anymore in the west. Or they exist in such small number that it is impossible to find.
We talk about these subjects all the time. EE women in general are tough and beautiful by necessity. But they really desire to be soft and feminine.
There is huge pressure on them to Marry and have families. I know several in Ukraine and Russia that are or have been married and endure a lot to keep their marriage together. This is the commitment you will find from the good ones in the FSU. Anyway, not sure if any of that made sense as I got off track. But I think your problem and my old issue are the same. We are both thinking that an ideal from years ago still exists somewhere here in the west.
And generally speaking it does not. Maybe I see this as I am guessing I am much younger than you. And I have not seen this type of woman in the US who is younger than 50 or 60 and that is a stretch.
So for a guy like me not even yet 40 I have no chance in hell of finding what I can find in the EE. I also have had to find my masculinity over the years.
I agree with Scott and the other guys. The ideals of masculinity have been so neutered from us and we dont even realize it. It does not take that much to stand and be strong, chivalrous and yet kind, gentle and loving.
But I agree that EE women want a man who can take charge and not be a complete asshole to them. But we are so neutered in the west that we feel awkward if we dont ask permission to be a man. I like you was raised to take care of myself. And it still feels awkward to me when an EE woman takes care of me. It is such a foreign feeling to me to be loved and taken care of……how sad is that!!
When she cooks me something I still feel the need to jump up and help rather than let her take care of her man. I feel this way not because she genuinely needs or wants my help but because I feel selfish letting someone take care of me. But when I relax and let it happen it feels so good. And I feel more loved and desired and cared for because of it. And there is not a damn thing wrong with that because I dont expect her to run to my job and help me.
We men must really rewire ourselves from this western thinking. But then they have to get a shoehorn to squeeze their fat ass into that house and car. The children are insane little brats and have no respect for anything and expect everything.
They have no manners, common sense or work ethic. Ask any business owner about trying to hire new people. It is impossible to find someone with a work ethic anymore. Anyway, I lost track of where I was going with this. So, I hope you get over there and give it a try. Thank you for the kind sentiments.
I read your thoughts and observations. Uncanny how much alike we are in our views. I am a very masculine guy. I love golf, riding motorcycles, snow skiing and hanging out with my buddies on occasion. But I also like spending time with an intelligent, kind, gentle, warm, funny and lovely woman. Someone with class, grace, charm and humor. Someone who is quietly strong, challenges me to be my best, and a girl I can respect — not because she is a ball-buster — but because she just goes about getting things done in a subtle but deliberative manner.
Yes, someone like my mother. There was not anyone who ever met her who did not think she was the most remarkable woman they had ever known. However, this was not woman who was outspoken or overbearing. When she decided to speak, it was so eloquent and reasoned that even if you did not agree with her, you certainly respected her.
She garnered respect without even so much as hinting that she wanted or deserved it. She was so feminine, yet never above getting her hands dirty — literally. This was a lady who could fix a screen door at 4 P. Saturday afternoon, and be at the opera in a gown at 8 P.
I will find someone similar to her in EE. I just have to be patient. Thank you again John. Thanks to all you guys. I too do not always agree with everyone here. Each of us has our own experiences and perspectives. The one common thing we share is the notion that somewhere on the other side of this beautiful planet there is a girl that awaits us. Many would say we are fools. Better to die a fool and alone than to settle for anyone less than a nice lady to grow old with.
Maybe eaten alive was not a good way for me to describe what will happen to a WM in the east. But he will be seen as weak and discarded as such. When the problem is him and not the women. So were the American guys at the nightclub successful with the Ukrainian girls? You are right about being the man and all that. Basically the foreign girls throw themselves at Western guys. Just get off the plane and as soon as they learn that you are a Western guy the girls come running.
Of course they same the same thing about girls in Latin America, Southeast Asia and other part of the world that is completely overrun by feminism and materialism. Then again a lot of foreign tend to want to marry Western guys because of who we are. Do not tell me that there is no truth to this concept.
It is widely promoted after all. Well, as always happens in life, some of those American males did succeed and some did not. In the big cities, most women are very nervous is most western men. There is this little issue with men coming there for a little on the side and leaving. A true lady, will stay back and wait for you to prove yourself to her. A lady just looking for a Visa, will do what she needs to get that Visa.
Be careful, use common sense and everything will be OK. William, I have heard these stories just like anyone else. But I have more than a little experience now. I would tell you if you get off the plane and see a line of women waiting to jump you…. First off it will never happen and second they would not be the ones you want anyway.
But I personally would not suggest this as the best place to meet any woman anywhere in the world. Good EE women do not want to leave their homes and family.
They do it from a desire to have a family and children and a decent life. I have many Slavic friends. And I have been through both Ukraine and Russia. And as bad as drugs are in the west…alcohol is in the east. It is part of the social structure of the culture. And many, many good guys there become addicted and become abusive to their women. This is the major complaint I have heard from EE women. They want a guy there but dont want this drama.
And now amphetamines are very rampant there. Especially in Ukraine so be careful. Yes, western men are seen by many as being good husband prospects but very few women are actually looking for them because they dont want to leave their home. But get one to fall in love with you and it will change. But keep in mind….
What are the common signs to know if a woman is just trying to get a VISA? Is it demanding expensive dinners and gifts or is it usually something more subtle? I heard that you can tell the good girls from the ones who just want to take your money by not throwing huge amounts of money around. Things might have changed since then.
What was it like 7 years ago? You know what, William… How about you come here yourself and talk to the ladies instead of asking meaningless questions? I do NOT want to visit any night clubs, never wanted to and never will want! Definitely not my kind of a place to visit and have fun.
And I do not care how they look like now compared to 7 years ago. Was on busy in Romania. Took some time and travel to Kyiv. Being a western man bring a great deal of attention to yourself. Met the first lady at McDonalds, while I was standing in line getting coffee. All in different situations and place, but no night clubs. Night clubs are not me as well. I did go one time to see what it was all about, left after my drink was finished.
Did not care for it at all. I can tell you from my experiences, that no true woman will even speak with you about money or ask you to spend money on her. These are every strong and proud woman. I remember the first time I bought her something. You would have thought I killed someone, just by the look on her face. She was not very pleased with me at all. They are strong and proud women. Pack your things and just go.
You will not completely understand, until you just go there yourself. We can talk to you all day, but honestly do like I did. Just go to visit the country. After finding someone, coming back to the US or wherever you live, will be difficult.
After my trip in September, I landed stepped off the plane and wanted to turn around and leave to head back. After being there for the month of November, it was much harder to come back.
My wife-to-be was also not pleased with expensive trinkets, however me giving flowers once in awhile got a bare pass. Larry, I love that last comment about trying to part money from your wife. This is sooo true. My fiance has told me many times that she does not want anything from me. And part of that stems from the idea that she never wants a thought in my head that she could be anything other than genuine. I am not sure what the hell William wants but it sounds more like he wants a international club tour than a relationship.
It is later, but I am finally getting back into some what of a rhythm. Catch up on some reading and writing. John, Ira ask me the other day about sending me some money. When I asked her for what and why, she told me she wanted jelly beans for her son. A friend of his was in the US, on a soccer meet some international thing and his friend brought back jelly beans. The kids loved them and she wanted to surprise him. He is away in Lviv at military school and coming home for a fall break.
I had no words other than no, I will send these. She told me we are not husband and wife or engaged, so it is not right for me to do this. She would not let me do a thing, no even help clean up afterwards. After 20 years of marriage and doing everything, laundry, fold the clothes, clean the house, take care of the outside… this list goes on and on.
I have no idea how to react to anything Ira does. The Ex and the west took it out of me. I waited until my daughter was 18 and threw in the towel. I could not live like that anymore. I was starting to believe the old joke about men dying early. They do not just die, they kill themselves to get away from the bitch. Another one is a man turns over his balls to the wife, when they get married. In the west, men are trained to feel guilty, pay an arm and a leg to get away from the Ex.
The past 40 years in the west, have just destroyed the male. I take care of my daughter, which is important to me.
She does not understand what or why the marriage ended and I cannot explain. She has turned into the typical western woman. She was trained well by her mother, grandmother and aunt. My daughters aunt told her that her first marriage is for money, then her second is for love.
WTF BS is that crap. My daughter laughed, but it is too late. It is in her head already. Also is there any good websites that you know of or could profile when you have time for guys into Asian or Latin women?
Is there a Latin Cupid or Asian Cupid? I can answer all your questions with ONE sentence: FC and all other here, that have either moved there or are in the process. Meat markets and gold diggers. Come, rent an apartment and get out. Good when you can cook really well. Not really extra ordinary. And I for sure will not cook for families of my girl friend.
As for the money for the jelly beans. I understand why she wants to pay for it and in a way she is right. This is a very important and sometimes delicate matter. On the other hand , you still would want , to let her have her pride and dignity. And , for sure , they toast to many things.
And bringing some small gifts is also a good idea. The opinion from her older sister and parents , is also a very hot topic for her. I sure feel your urge , to go back as soon as possible. I think that Ukraine is a beautiful country , and in some ways , the climat is better than in my country.
It is very positive that she let you meet most of her friends and relatives. Plus I think in our current environment and social climate most men are better cooks than women. Hope the best to William…on his travels to Russia or Colombia…if he decides to go. Just take the advice on this site seriously.
I know first hand that young women in South America want men, not boys. Nightclubs and bars are a touchy subject. Everyone likes to have their type of fun…some more than others.
The only thing about bars and clubs…a lot of people there, men and women are acting to a certain degree…either putting on their best appearances, slumming, playing someone else, etc. Thanks for all the info. I dated these foreign women when I was between the ages of and was not ready to settle down. It was a different era in the US at the time, so it may be different today. I also had to drop my anger about being duped by our PC society.
Scott is correct when he says all of us men in the US are feminists to some degree. I just stand there in silence. I remember traveling to foreign lands many years ago. Women were women and men were men.
I look forward to experiencing that again. Being politically correct will not make you happy — unless getting the approval of society is what you need to be happy. Such a tradition is probably becoming very rare in America and the west since most couples are divorced or separated, which obviously breaks up the family and rips children away from one their parents. Serra just might be offering some very valuable advice. A quick review of my one on one English lesson with one of the young ladies from the English Club.
Natalia is a refined, feminine, incredibly attractive Ukrainian lady with bright, green eyes. She is 26 years old and at age 16 went on her first abroad trip to France.
She absolutely loved her experience with her crew, her job and America in general. She had an American boyfriend who was older than her and owned his own home and two cars. When she returned to Ukraine, she met a Ukrainian man her age, all of 21, and she ended her American romance. Now, 5 years later, they live together and will be married soon. I told her how US girls at the age of 21 years, change guys like we change clothes. Besides other subjects, I also shared with her my own experiences and how I found my wife and our happiness that we share.
She appeared puzzled because this was not her or any of her friends. She agreed that there would be some ladies that would go to this man, but for the most part, many would not. Her current fiance has barely anything but they look forward to building their wealth together. Western feminists are a bunch of clowns for insinuating that western men come to the EE searching for the easy EE lady.
As Natalia told me, she believes in love. And yes, that girl is an exception which just confirms the general rule! She was lucky to escape Ukraine at the age of 16 and see France, then she was lucky again when she got a chance to live and work in South Carolina for 4 months!
We returned back to Germany from Ukraine a couple of weeks ago. I am happy to report that Natalia passed her pre-interview for Flight Attendant with Emirates. She will now be going to Kiev for her 2 day assessment interview.
I spent 4 solid mornings with her and her fiance, helping develop and formulate their interview strategies. She texted me to say how happy she was and how she appreciated my help. During our final day, as we talked casually, after our lesson, I discovered that she had been a model, a dancer, and a Director of Mary Kay with 80 beauty consultants.
All at the tender age of Looking at her FB, I saw the other ladies, and yes, she was certainly the youngest. An extremely motivated, talented, young lady, with the same in her fiance. More English is being spoken. More ways are being sought for financial gain. Natalia told me that her 19 year old brother was making more money than anyone in the family by playing online poker. Her fiance, I came to find out, was successful working with a Forex account. They are wonderful people with giant hearts.
Our friends and family had come to the train station to bid us goodbye on our trip to Kiev. It was heartwarming to see such care for us. Pretty exciting knowing that a family is growing with the love and care of two parents. My wife, the former lawyer, has no issues whatsoever, staying home and taking care of our daughter, day in and day out.
Never a complaint, never a whisper of discontent. Everyday I go to work with a packed lunch and come home to my sweet girls and a hot dinner. I can see how my daughter is growing up. She waves and blows kisses to her loved ones, or waves at cars when we are strolling in her baby carriage.
Robert, I am 58 and my wife is To her, we are a family, never to be broken, and always to be one whole. Due to the harsh lifestyle of Ukrainian men, at our age, they do look old! So, raise your glasses and join me in a toast of congratulations for my wife and soon to be born, son. Another happy and healthy child on the way. Your stories always show a stark contrast between eastern and western women.
First, BIG congratulations on the soon to be member of the family. My girl was 5 years older than my son. You are going to have a blast! Enjoy this time, because they grow up so fast! If you need anything, let me know. In speak with a close friend, who is looking for lady in his life, I tell him to come with me and stay for a month.
He is a few years younger than me I am 50 and I keep telling him he will never find a good woman in the west. There are women there looking to escape and come west. I think there is a fantasy is their heads about how wonderful it is. I do not given up the Marine in me and I did meet another lady, I am seeing. She does not want to move here thank God. She has a wonderful family and friends.
I sit back and laugh, because after a few weeks of seeing me, it was the sister and her husband out of a picnic. Then it was more friends and finally the father and mother. I know she was looking for their approval of me: You did good sir. I salute you on success. Just wish more men we go and see for themselves. After coming back to the western, they too would long to return to their Slavic lady. Bryan — I follow your blogs constantly. Yes , when you finally have met both of her parents , then you may say , that you are on the right track.
And she may not have to worry about what her family will think of her relation with a foreigner. Of course , her father will have the final saying in this. Now it is up to you , to take it to the next level.
Anyway good luck and work towards a happy end.. The brother in-law supplied the home made vodka and brandy. Holy crap, they toast to everything LOL! The next weeks were spent with her, having lunch alone with the brother in-law. A walk by the Dnipro with her sister and children. Nights walking the dog after her work. The final meeting was with her 15 year old son.
Then it was a train ride to Kyiv to meet more of her friends. There are good older women in Ukraine and maybe a few young ones.
But I made a point to stay within 13 years younger age difference. I do find it different, that at woman 40 would want to have a child. Maybe this is just the western male coming out. I am trying to hard to kick this to the curb. But I have no problems having a child with her at all.
The slavic women just amaze me at how hard they work. People in the west bitch about working more than 8 hours a day and there she works 10 hours a day. Then comes home, cooks, cleans and gets ready for the next day. And walk the dog. The other thing is there are so many women single in Ukraine. Blows my mind that a man there would leave his beautiful wife for a younger wife. There are beautiful women all around, but wow!
Wow , another chapter in your lifes. I understand that you are in different emotional states. For sure things will change , but it will be more fullfilling. Especially since it is a boy.
At 61 years of age I would love to have a EE woman bear my child. The best to you and your family. For now I had to slow things down a bit. Yes , my girlfriend wanted to come see me in April but due to other issues , I had to cancel that. So , it is still in the work. But she has already mentioned that on my next trip to Odessa , we must have a BBQ together. Here is an interesting article written by a foreign man in living America.
Do not let 2 or 3 successful marriages to fool and mislead you! An eastern European female is times and times worse than her western counterpart! Still wanna go to Eastern Europe? They are unable to appreciate, value and respect any good things done for them and will only want more and more and more money from you no matter if you have money or not! Please, do not make this biggest mistake of your life and start a relationship with an eastern European female! They suck times more than Western Women!
FC, I think it really depends on the woman. Biggest problem I see is western the TV shows and movies. These are giving a false views of life in the west.
Yes and no, Bryan; How come I never got affected by the mainstream media, busloads of propaganda, brainwashing, political correctness, affirmative action, consumerism? Any updates to your Ukrainian experiences? Last I remember you were considering making a move there? Avoid Ukrainian females even more than western ones!! After my last long stay in Ukraine, I came back here to the US to handle a few remaining items with property.
As you all can tell, I remained in the US for now. Had a shocker her wanting to get pregnant at 40, then is was the money thing. I started feeling like just a cash cow only and every time I turned around she was wanting here or This was becoming so frequent, that I started questioning her about what the money was for. She got defensive on me and then excuses started. Do not get me wrong. I believe and know there are good women in Ukraine and Russia.
But, honestly the numbers are becoming slimmer and slimmer for the chances to find a good women in Ukraine. The situation there is going to get much worse, before it starts to even try to improve.
Not even going to talk about the free EU travel about to start. Ukraine needs to stay Goodbye to many people. And God forbid someone trying to get into a relationship with a Ukrainian female!
She will use whatever tricks to empty your pockets without ever giving anything back! All the reasons to ask for money will look legitimate on the surface and trust me, those reasons will be plenty!
Cash cow and a lucky lottery ticket to get to the West. Every Ukrainian woman has a behavioral pattern when she encounters a western man: Ukrainian women are better actresses than Hollywood stars! What a turn around of things in mere years in Eastern Europe… Never thoughts this was even possible..
To sum it all up: Better yet- buy a hooker and do not worry about not getting the bang for your hard earned buck!
Fuck money, but I can NOT bring my time back! My fucking wasted time! I know that things have slowed down here in our forum. Look at it this way: We stood our ground against the feminists that tried to shut our minds, values and dreams. They finally threw in the towel.
So, just for fun now, I thought I would add a very funny video with Scott Baio. Cheers to the unofficial start of summer men. Hopefully all the Americans on this forum had a safe Memorial Day weekend. All well over here. Our daughter started German kindergarten this past week.
She now has German being thrown at her with English, Russian and Ukranian at home. Another distinct advantage living here vs the USA. In the US, everyone pretty much sticks with the native language without the opportunity to practice in other languages perhaps Spanish.
Sorry to hear about the issues that you both encountered. Thanks for letting us know. Don Juan de Marco was quoted as saying paraphrased: Now that Ukraine can travel thru the EU, this will change the landscape drastically. I do count myself as one of the lucky ones, for sure. He has an excellent relationship with his wife and family. Plus, if you all remember, my former clients 4 of them are still happily married after 3 years.
One couple had a baby a couple of weeks before our son arrived. I believe that there are hopes in the smaller towns not Odessa, Kiev, Kharkov, for example. But, I know realistically, guys cannot, especially the young ones. Thanks for the update on how things have changed over there. For clarification, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying about searching for a lady over there which is exactly my newer strategy.
I have determined that travelling off the beaten path increases the likelihood that a lady is more sincere, serious in her search, and probably much more grounded. The question goes back to what are her internal values and upbringing. Marry a drop-dead gorgeous, big city girl with high expectations and you are asking for trouble.
Opt for a relatively attractive, more down-to-earth, small-town lady, and you get what you bargained for — someone who will appreciate a man who is family-oriented, that treats her with kindness, respect, love, affection, and understanding. Am I on the right track here? Do you think that the conditions there have increased the number of girls who are serious about finding a Western man and moving overseas?
Appreciate any insight you can give. Conditions have increased the number of girls who are now smart enough to play coy for a while and to take any westerner for a ride to empty his pockets.
Moreover, a small town lady will have a small town mentality and life interests and rather sooner than later you will start feeling that you two are living on two different planets. My honest advice is: May be try Russian Siberia and Far East instead. But stay away from Ukraine and its women! Thanks for the advice. Cut them off pronto!
Had enough experience with American women in that realm. Hey Lance, Nice to hear from you and I stand solidly behind you for your All-American shot in finding a genuine lady from Ukraine.
So, to answer your great question, I am going to write all of the young between 24 and 35 years old that I know in a smaller town. I am going to poll them reflecting your question. Now, be assured these ladies are genuine people, married or engaged to very good Ukrainian men. In fact, one young couple newlyweds who we are best friends with, will be the Godparents of our son this summer.
Thanks to the freedom of travel with the no EU visa, they can now come visit us for the ceremony. When I round up all of the opinions and thoughts, I will compile and disseminate here on the site. Its a great question and it needs to be answered by ladies on the ground and not by any of us foreign men. Is it only me who seems to be getting all those eastern European gold diggers all along? Something is wrong with this equation. What a brilliant ideal. You are exactly right.
I chalk it up to learning that is all. Still want to move over to Europe, either Germany, Poland or Slovakia. Just love it too much over there not too move. Life it far to short for garage.
Funny, because there she was always messaging me, even after we stopped working together. She is not looking for a move anywhere LOL!
Her mother and father live over in Russia, but she went to school in Dnipro and stayed after school. Not saying it will work. Just planning on giving it the all-American try.
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